LOL! I'll never get why some see sex as a sin; it is supposed to be enjoyed and celebrated. In my religion, we do have the rules of Niddah (regarding sex during a woman's period), which in its own way can seem strange, but there are good reasons for it, although sex is the fundamental right of a woman and not a man (including the quality; a grounds for divorce is a man not giving his wife adequate enough or frequent enough sex). I don't know about RCism, we are still supposed to love make, even after our wives have gone beyond the capacity to have children.
It's the Number 1 Catholic Hangup, David, to the point where some people accuse us of not recognising any sins at all other than those "of the pelvic region" :)
The writer is a progressive Catholic woman, beside whom I would be considered a right-wing reactionary, but her pieces are always intelligent and often funny. I doubt the Cyber Swiss Guard would think much of her :)
Thanks for the link. I read this a couple of days ago, but haven't been round to comment on other blogs until now. I enjoyed reading the piece. Rabbi Boteach is Chabad Sephardi (my first wife was from the Chabad tradition and I'm of course Sephardi, who also have a strong mystical tradition, I guess this is why the author of that blog, who says she is a Catholic mystic seems to like the interview) so I am familiar with his writings and yet again I agree with him. Btw, here is a quote from his latest book 'kosher lust:
“The moment you see orgasm as a transcendent experience and one that can lead to mystical union, it’s truly transformative. We don’t know how to deal with orgasm in American sexuality. For us, it’s just something that proves that the sexual encounter is over. The whole experience of sex is a means to an end. It leads to bad sex and short sex.”
That's actually closer to Tantric 'mysticism' than Christianity. Jack doesn't know about Judaism. If you are aware of anything about this pagan belief system, you'll avoid such dangerous nonsense.
What is closer to tantric mysticism ? Chabad or the quote? If you mean Chabad, I feel free to pick and choose bits of what they say .
A bit like my approach to Jewish mysticism generally, although again being Sephardi we have a mystical strand woven in alongside rationalism, e.g. Yosef Caro was comfortable in both Jewish Talmud and the mystical traditions of the day. Half of it is balls, but at least it is Jewish balls.
If you are referring to the quote, I'd take it as being extremely poetic. If you read any Sephardi poetry, it is akin to the Hebrew Bible and Song of Songs;even the Christian (c of e at least) marriage service refers to god as uniting 2 people in 1 flesh (or something to that effect).
Come on, just admit that the mention of mystical orgasms was a bit too racy for you eh Jack?
Yep; you're correct there, Sister Tiberia - if the CSG were real, they would most certainly disapprove of this progressive" and her "enlightened" opinions.
Saint Pope John Paul's Theology of the Body presents a much more edifying and integrated vision of the human person - body, soul, and spirit.
Btw, Jack hopes your parish priest doesn't read this website!
How are you? Hannah recently put up a discussion on our blog about Sephardi Judaism. It included a lecture given by a Rabbi and he briefly mentioned the issue of conversion in Israel and exclaimed "we shouldn't do it like Catholics". Not sure what he meant by that. I shall have to ask Cousin Lou. The general consensus by my Aszkenazi posters was that Sephardi were 'better in bed"; intelligent and erudite discussion you see, ahem.
As I am meeting with Louise today, I shall pass on my warmest wishes to her on your behalf (she is conducting interviews with all of us; wants to be a journalist).
He's on holiday in Spain at the moment, HJ, so I think he'll probably be finding better things to do. I have no idea if he's ever seen this page, but he does know my "Sister Tiberia' identity so it's possible :£
I'm at a loss as to why this blog could be deemed to be heretical. But then our friend Carl Jacobs said to me yesterday I was apparently on the Liberal/Conservative side of Judaism. I put him to rights on that one in a very long (1,321 word) reply.
Carl was correct, David. And your changing your theology to accommodate your sister's trials rather than encouraging her too overcome it.
I'm no Jew, and perhaps its not my place to comment, but Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, is pretty clear on the issue of active lesbianism. Yet your sister, with your open support, proudly proclaims and flaunts it.
Respectfully, Carl wasn't correct & neither are you, because the totality of what it means to be Orthodox, itself a broad term, especially within Sephardim (despite your apparent knowledge of Judaism you are firmly rooted in Haredi, ultra Orthodox mindset) - and I took time and detailed effort to explain my position on Orthodoxy .
My position on homosexuality & gay marriage is far more complex that people think, but as it is a 'dog whistle' subject which attracts almost no room for compromise, on both sides, subtle and complex simply doesn't happen.
As for 'your sister, with your open support, proudly proclaims and flaunts it'.
Yes she is a gay & I genuinely don't that can be changed and frankly I wouldn't want her to and I'm glad she is proud of who she is and the fact she no longer worries about what people think on that score; she is standing up for her beliefs & opinions, something which I admire. I love my sister the way she is and that is what my parents would have wanted.
I would identify family and community as one of the key aspects of Orthodox Judaism, so this is firmly within that mindset & is a part of what makes me 'Orthodox'. That am the fact I follow the 613 Mitzvot, believe that Jews are chosen to show G-d in the world, that the giving of the Torah was an historical fact, that the two Torahs are divine in origin and that the rest of the Hebrew Bible is the inspired writing of G-d; that along with our traditions, Talmud & rabbinic writings these are the wellspring of Judaism.
I will give you points on one thing : I do know how you feel when Len from Cranmer gives us his opinions of RC'sim, because I feel, intentionally or not, that this is what you do to me & to a lesser extent Hannah. It doesn't bother me, except that I don't feel I do this with your faith, in part because I simply don't know enough about it and therefore do not feel it is right to formulate an opinion based on what I think I know, not what the faith is actually about.
David has said at various times and on various sites, that he support civil SSM and not Jewish SSM. There is a subtly going on which you haven't worked out. As for his general support of my relationship, this is genuine, but there is enough wriggle room for him in Judaism to support it (again a subtly you haven't grasped). He also has a view that all Jewish people should return to the faith and become as observant as possible. So to me he is being perfectly consistent.
Oh and in real life I don't flaunt being gay. I'm only just starting to hold hands with Sarah and that is only in certain situations. So whatever banter you read on our comments thread, isn't replicated in public in the real world.
PS the Rambam was more kinder about lesbians than he was gay men. We only deserved a flogging, rather than the death penalty (:
PPS I took cousin Louise out for lunch. She says hi back to you.
Happy Jack has no wish to engage in a discussion of Judaism or to offend you or Hannah. As you rightly say, he is not equipped to as he has not studied the Torah or the various debates within modern Judaism. However, as little as he knows, he knows this, that no Orthodox Jew would accept active homosexuality as okay and permissible. We can argue about the 'inclination' and 'orientation' and whether there is 'choice' in the matter, until the cows come home. We could also discuss how one loves a sister with this trial in her life and the best approach to adopt.
First and foremost your duty is to God and as the eldest member of your family (are you?) you have a responsibility to fulfil in keeping them within the laws of God - as you understand them. So, if you are Orthodox, your position must be clear and the challenge is how put this into practice.
Hannah
The point is that Rambam regarded lesbian sex acts as offensive to God - and not the lesser penalty he recommended. It is interesting that lesbianism is not mentioned in the Torah - or the Christian NT. However, as a Jew, if you give equal weight to the Talmud, then certainly Maimonides regarded it has having been alluded there as against the laws of God and, until relatively recently, it has always been accepted as forbidden.
I was going to ask if you'd ever heard of Rabbi Steven Greenberg ? If you haven't he is the first openly gay Orthodox Rabbi in the US.
Nah you don't offend me at all; people say worse things to me on other blogs (such as the telegraph).
I perfectly understand you're position and world view. You know mine. Besides which we actually agree on most issues, except for homosexuality and of course which faith is the coolest !
I don't think anything on this blog is desperately heretical, from the standpoint of an average Catholic. There are certain Catholics (and no, HJ, I don't mean you) who could doubtless find eight heresies just in the last four posts. If that's how they choose to spend their free time, then best of British luck to them. I won't be losing sleep :)
Go girl ! ( as my sister Esther, who has a PhD) would say (:
You'll have to forgive me if my posts above were a bit too steamy for a Catholic blog. It must be the club med/ME genes getting through the British stiff upper lip, ahem.
Nothing heretical at all, Sister Tiberia. Perhaps some misunderstanding about Catholic sexual ethics. Jack has never felt at all constrained in expressing his love for his wife physically.
There are only a few 'rules'. One concerns a particularly grossly indecent act - sodomy - which nowadays can be, and is, perpetrated by either partner. The other concerns the conclusion of sexual love on the pat of the male - or acts, as there are no limits other than exhaustion.
Hope you haven't been missing out all these years because of a misunderstanding! Or perhaps Jack has been engaging in sinful behaviours all this time.
Oh and I forgot to add, tomorrow is the start of Bein ha-Metzarim, kicking off with a fast day and then being solemn for 3 weeks, ending with another fast and no pleasurable activities & no chicken or red meat (although Sabbath can be as lively as ever). But I am in a bit of a dilemma here. Should I continue blogging? Is blogging a 'pleasurable' activity? I dunno it really has me and my Rabbi stumped. So being ecumenical, what do you think? Do you stop blogging during lent?
Not the clearest image, click on it for a bigger view :) Still funny.
ReplyDeleteLOL! I'll never get why some see sex as a sin; it is supposed to be enjoyed and celebrated. In my religion, we do have the rules of Niddah (regarding sex during a woman's period), which in its own way can seem strange, but there are good reasons for it, although sex is the fundamental right of a woman and not a man (including the quality; a grounds for divorce is a man not giving his wife adequate enough or frequent enough sex). I don't know about RCism, we are still supposed to love make, even after our wives have gone beyond the capacity to have children.
ReplyDeleteIt's the Number 1 Catholic Hangup, David, to the point where some people accuse us of not recognising any sins at all other than those "of the pelvic region" :)
ReplyDeleteYou might find this interesting
http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/jewish-thoughts-on-sex-in-marriage.html
The writer is a progressive Catholic woman, beside whom I would be considered a right-wing reactionary, but her pieces are always intelligent and often funny. I doubt the Cyber Swiss Guard would think much of her :)
Sister Tibs,
DeleteThanks for the link. I read this a couple of days ago, but haven't been round to comment on other blogs until now. I enjoyed reading the piece. Rabbi Boteach is Chabad Sephardi (my first wife was from the Chabad tradition and I'm of course Sephardi, who also have a strong mystical tradition, I guess this is why the author of that blog, who says she is a Catholic mystic seems to like the interview) so I am familiar with his writings and yet again I agree with him. Btw, here is a quote from his latest book 'kosher lust:
“The moment you see orgasm as a transcendent experience and one that can lead to mystical union, it’s truly transformative. We don’t know how to deal with orgasm in American sexuality. For us, it’s just something that proves that the sexual encounter is over. The whole experience of sex is a means to an end. It leads to bad sex and short sex.”
That's actually closer to Tantric 'mysticism' than Christianity. Jack doesn't know about Judaism. If you are aware of anything about this pagan belief system, you'll avoid such dangerous nonsense.
DeleteHappy Jack,
DeleteWhat is closer to tantric mysticism ? Chabad or the quote? If you mean Chabad, I feel free to pick and choose bits of what they say .
A bit like my approach to Jewish mysticism generally, although again being Sephardi we have a mystical strand woven in alongside rationalism, e.g. Yosef Caro was comfortable in both Jewish Talmud and the mystical traditions of the day. Half of it is balls, but at least it is Jewish balls.
If you are referring to the quote, I'd take it as being extremely poetic. If you read any Sephardi poetry, it is akin to the Hebrew Bible and Song of Songs;even the Christian (c of e at least) marriage service refers to god as uniting 2 people in 1 flesh (or something to that effect).
Come on, just admit that the mention of mystical orgasms was a bit too racy for you eh Jack?
Yep; you're correct there, Sister Tiberia - if the CSG were real, they would most certainly disapprove of this progressive" and her "enlightened" opinions.
ReplyDeleteSaint Pope John Paul's Theology of the Body presents a much more edifying and integrated vision of the human person - body, soul, and spirit.
Btw, Jack hopes your parish priest doesn't read this website!
Ah Happy Jack,
DeleteHow are you? Hannah recently put up a discussion on our blog about Sephardi Judaism. It included a lecture given by a Rabbi and he briefly mentioned the issue of conversion in Israel and exclaimed "we shouldn't do it like Catholics". Not sure what he meant by that. I shall have to ask Cousin Lou. The general consensus by my Aszkenazi posters was that Sephardi were 'better in bed"; intelligent and erudite discussion you see, ahem.
Give my warmest wishes to Cousin Louise. As you know, Jack is Sephardi and Irish in equal measure. He is also a modest man.
DeleteHappy Jack,
DeleteAs I am meeting with Louise today, I shall pass on my warmest wishes to her on your behalf (she is conducting interviews with all of us; wants to be a journalist).
He's on holiday in Spain at the moment, HJ, so I think he'll probably be finding better things to do. I have no idea if he's ever seen this page, but he does know my "Sister Tiberia' identity so it's possible :£
ReplyDeleteSister Tibs,
DeleteI'm at a loss as to why this blog could be deemed to be heretical. But then our friend Carl Jacobs said to me yesterday I was apparently on the Liberal/Conservative side of Judaism. I put him to rights on that one in a very long (1,321 word) reply.
Carl was correct, David. And your changing your theology to accommodate your sister's trials rather than encouraging her too overcome it.
DeleteI'm no Jew, and perhaps its not my place to comment, but Maimonides, in his Mishneh Torah, is pretty clear on the issue of active lesbianism. Yet your sister, with your open support, proudly proclaims and flaunts it.
Happy Jack,
DeleteRespectfully, Carl wasn't correct & neither are you, because the totality of what it means to be Orthodox, itself a broad term, especially within Sephardim (despite your apparent knowledge of Judaism you are firmly rooted in Haredi, ultra Orthodox mindset) - and I took time and detailed effort to explain my position on Orthodoxy .
My position on homosexuality & gay marriage is far more complex that people think, but as it is a 'dog whistle' subject which attracts almost no room for compromise, on both sides, subtle and complex simply doesn't happen.
As for 'your sister, with your open support, proudly proclaims and flaunts it'.
Yes she is a gay & I genuinely don't that can be changed and frankly I wouldn't want her to and I'm glad she is proud of who she is and the fact she no longer worries about what people think on that score; she is standing up for her beliefs & opinions, something which I admire. I love my sister the way she is and that is what my parents would have wanted.
I would identify family and community as one of the key aspects of Orthodox Judaism, so this is firmly within that mindset & is a part of what makes me 'Orthodox'. That am the fact I follow the 613 Mitzvot, believe that Jews are chosen to show G-d in the world, that the giving of the Torah was an historical fact, that the two Torahs are divine in origin and that the rest of the Hebrew Bible is the inspired writing of G-d; that along with our traditions, Talmud & rabbinic writings these are the wellspring of Judaism.
I will give you points on one thing : I do know how you feel when Len from Cranmer gives us his opinions of RC'sim, because I feel, intentionally or not, that this is what you do to me & to a lesser extent Hannah. It doesn't bother me, except that I don't feel I do this with your faith, in part because I simply don't know enough about it and therefore do not feel it is right to formulate an opinion based on what I think I know, not what the faith is actually about.
Yours in respectful disagreement,
Dov
Hi Happy Jack,
DeleteDavid has said at various times and on various sites, that he support civil SSM and not Jewish SSM. There is a subtly going on which you haven't worked out. As for his general support of my relationship, this is genuine, but there is enough wriggle room for him in Judaism to support it (again a subtly you haven't grasped). He also has a view that all Jewish people should return to the faith and become as observant as possible. So to me he is being perfectly consistent.
Oh and in real life I don't flaunt being gay. I'm only just starting to hold hands with Sarah and that is only in certain situations. So whatever banter you read on our comments thread, isn't replicated in public in the real world.
PS the Rambam was more kinder about lesbians than he was gay men. We only deserved a flogging, rather than the death penalty (:
PPS I took cousin Louise out for lunch. She says hi back to you.
David
DeleteHappy Jack has no wish to engage in a discussion of Judaism or to offend you or Hannah. As you rightly say, he is not equipped to as he has not studied the Torah or the various debates within modern Judaism. However, as little as he knows, he knows this, that no Orthodox Jew would accept active homosexuality as okay and permissible. We can argue about the 'inclination' and 'orientation' and whether there is 'choice' in the matter, until the cows come home. We could also discuss how one loves a sister with this trial in her life and the best approach to adopt.
First and foremost your duty is to God and as the eldest member of your family (are you?) you have a responsibility to fulfil in keeping them within the laws of God - as you understand them. So, if you are Orthodox, your position must be clear and the challenge is how put this into practice.
Hannah
The point is that Rambam regarded lesbian sex acts as offensive to God - and not the lesser penalty he recommended. It is interesting that lesbianism is not mentioned in the Torah - or the Christian NT. However, as a Jew, if you give equal weight to the Talmud, then certainly Maimonides regarded it has having been alluded there as against the laws of God and, until relatively recently, it has always been accepted as forbidden.
Hi Happy Jack
DeleteI was going to ask if you'd ever heard of Rabbi Steven Greenberg ? If you haven't he is the first openly gay Orthodox Rabbi in the US.
Nah you don't offend me at all; people say worse things to me on other blogs (such as the telegraph).
I perfectly understand you're position and world view. You know mine. Besides which we actually agree on most issues, except for homosexuality and of course which faith is the coolest !
Jack has read about Steven Greenberg and the controversy he caused. Is he 'Orthodox'?
DeleteSurely you don't comment on the Telegraph? Even Jack avoids going there!
Hi Happy Jack,
DeleteYes I do comment on the Telegraph; someone has to defend the Jewsphere ! (:
I don't think anything on this blog is desperately heretical, from the standpoint of an average Catholic. There are certain Catholics (and no, HJ, I don't mean you) who could doubtless find eight heresies just in the last four posts. If that's how they choose to spend their free time, then best of British luck to them. I won't be losing sleep :)
ReplyDeleteGo girl ! ( as my sister Esther, who has a PhD) would say (:
DeleteYou'll have to forgive me if my posts above were a bit too steamy for a Catholic blog. It must be the club med/ME genes getting through the British stiff upper lip, ahem.
Catholics just don't brag about our 'prowess'. No need to. It's a personal and private matter.
DeleteNothing heretical at all, Sister Tiberia. Perhaps some misunderstanding about Catholic sexual ethics. Jack has never felt at all constrained in expressing his love for his wife physically.
DeleteThere are only a few 'rules'. One concerns a particularly grossly indecent act - sodomy - which nowadays can be, and is, perpetrated by either partner. The other concerns the conclusion of sexual love on the pat of the male - or acts, as there are no limits other than exhaustion.
Hope you haven't been missing out all these years because of a misunderstanding! Or perhaps Jack has been engaging in sinful behaviours all this time.
Oh and I forgot to add, tomorrow is the start of Bein ha-Metzarim, kicking off with a fast day and then being solemn for 3 weeks, ending with another fast and no pleasurable activities & no chicken or red meat (although Sabbath can be as lively as ever). But I am in a bit of a dilemma here. Should I continue blogging? Is blogging a 'pleasurable' activity? I dunno it really has me and my Rabbi stumped. So being ecumenical, what do you think? Do you stop blogging during lent?
ReplyDelete